The F Word: Debating Feminism with a Stranger

so i recently debated feminism with a complete stranger not because i wanted to torture myself with her complete ignorance, denial, and hatred, but rather because my best friend needed help driving negative forces away from home. though we barely grazed the surface of feminism and its history, i still find the debate - particularly her use of religion as a buffer as well as her elevation of men and masculinity - highly amusing. so i without further adew, i present to you our quite ridiculous debate, stream of consciousness style:

ANONYMOUS: It's the feminist movement that had made us a 2 income family country. It is extremely difficult to survive anymore with one income.(I think our Government might have pushed that one along, they just doubled their income) And our country's children are suffering for it. I think some good has come out of it like the right to vote but it was taken way to far from the 70's on. I still like my man to treat me like a lady and open doors for me and not slap me on the back and treat me like one of his buddies. And I don't want me or my daughters being called to war. I'm just sayin...

FRIEND: I would have to disagree with you. I believe it is CONSUMERISM that has made it difficult to be a one-income-household. If people lived as they did in the 1950s (small house, one vehicle, consuming MUCH less), families could easily live on one income. The problem as I see it is that one-income families want to be able to have only one income but live the same lifestyle as dual-earner families. That is simply unrealistic. I think it is wonderful for women (or men) to chose to stay home with their children and I think they have one of the hardest jobs in the world. I wish that stay-at-home parents could be paid for the work that they do. Unfortunatley that is not the system we are currently living in. Perhaps that is where the change needs to occur. Society needs to put more value on stay-at-home-parents and childrearing. There is a great deal of feminist literature which supports the value of people choosing to stay home and to care for children. That is the point on feminism---that people have a CHOICE. Feminism gives people choices. Without feminism, I would not have been able to chose to go to college, earn a Masters degree, and PhD. I would not have had the choice to have a career. I wouldn't have been able to vote. A woman would not have been able to run for president. Women wouldn't be able to play sports in college. Women wouldn't be able to speak their minds. I could go on and on about the rights afforded to me because of feminism. On a side note.....I am a feminist and so is my husband. He treats me more like a "lady" than any of my non-feminist, conservative friends' spouses. Mark always opens doors for me and does not treat me like one of his buddies.

ANONYMOUS: I do agree that consumerism is part to blame. But look at the price of things! People could afford more, so the price of things went up. We (Jeff and I) have always lived on one income so I can invest in our children/world. We bought our house at the top of the real estate peak. My mom kept saying "It was never like this when young people were buying home back then." I really don't believe that if the majority of our homes were on one income they could have asked those prices for homes. Therefore women felt forced into working. I can't tell you how many moms have said " I wish I didn't have to work." It's sad. They are working to keep food on the table and have a roof over their heads. God made men and women different. They have different strengths and ability. I am not ashamed to say that my hubby can beat me in arm wrestling. I'm glad. If someone breaks in I'd be glad to step aside and let him be the man. I will feel no mochoness come over me like he would-lol. God knew what he was doing when he made us different. He even spoke about or different roles. And I love them. I am glad to have him be the head of the household. He is our President and I'm the VP. But I do have a lot more say then the VP-lol. Men need to feel respected and do need to feel needed. I think we have screwed up our roles quit a bit and therefore our families our suffering.

ME: God did make men and women different, especially because he made them out of each other. He made them to compliment each other and equal each other; not one to subordinate the other. Physical differences do not equate social differences or inequality. If that were true, you wouldn't be able to read or write because society would have continued to prevent you from doing that. And to your point about consumerism, 2 person income, etc. It's call the feminization of poverty. Did you know that women ALL AROUND THE WORLD account for more than 2/3 of all legally impoverished individuals? It's not because of feminism. It's because they don't have equal rights. Did you know that if a man and woman in the U.S. get divorced, men actually succeed more on their own than when they were married and women do worse than their exhusbands both when and after married? That's not because of feminism. It's because of inequality. As for the price of things, if more women were able to garner more social power the price of things could potentially go down. Too many people wielding individual and corporate power causes that - not feminism. Feminism attempts to eradicate that. How can you blame feminism for the cost of things when you see very few women controlling that cost in a corporate office? How many women heads of AIG, the government, stocks, etc. do you see COMPARED TO MEN and what positions do they hold? I am very happy that your man opens doors for you and treats you like a lady. You can thank feminism for that. If it weren't for feminism, he could (not saying he would, but that he COULD) beat you instead and get away with it because it would be perfectly legal. He could take your children away from you and it would be perfectly legal. You and your daughters can't be called to war. Feminism has never made that happen and doesn't plan on it. However, you and your daughters could (and maybe have) been sexually assaulted. Are you going to blame feminism for that too, are you going to blame YOUR DAUGHTERS, or are you going to blame that man who did it? The man who wanted so much power over them as young women - the power that feminists try to equalize and/or eradicate??? Feminism has made it so that you and your daughters can go to school, learn the same things as men, make the same amount as a man doing the same work, protects them from physical harm and discrimination on the basis of their girlhood, has allowed them to protect themselves from STI's and pregnancy. And these things are far from over because women still make less than men, making it (as you have so kindly pointed out) difficult to have a single WOMAN's income, and these things are still constantly threatened and compromised. I have no doubt that you have a great man. All feminism is trying to do is make sure your marriage/partnership is equal - that you are happy in it and feel equal in it. That you can equally contribute, that he can too. That you are safe in your marrriage/partnership. That you can survive without it if necessary. That you have the same opportunities as the men in your lives, so that you can feel that your life is good and worth living. That your daughters will grow to find happiness in their own marriages/partnerships. Can you imagine a life in which you were not able to go to school just because you were a girl? Or if you could go to school, all you could study was home ec and prepare for a marriage just because you were a girl? Can you imagine a world in which you couldn't vote just because you were a woman? A world in which it is okay for men to rape or beat you - for a husband to do the same because it was a contract you signed at marriage - just because you're a woman. A world in which you had to fight not to have sex with him bc of the fear of one more potentially deadly pregnancy bc abstinence is your only birth control? A world in which you are not allowed to know about your body - where your period is consider poisonous, enough to melt metal (this is true!)? A world in which you could not ask for a divorce if you were married? A world in which you would have to work in a sweat shop for very low wages - if any - wages that were lower than men's? Can you imagine a life in which your boss could rape you and pay you shit wages and because you had no other choice, you stuck around with no legal recourse? A life in which your life was threatened every time you went to work bc of poor conditions, wages, violent bosses, etc? A life in which you could have to leave the country and sell your body just to feed your children and send them to school? All of these things and SO MUCH MORE were and still are in some respects possible without feminist work. I know you recognize the feats feminists have made. But you can't think that it's over because it's not. There is still inequality; you just don't feel it because A) you don't want to and B) you don't know a time when it was worse. Lastly, feminists of the past and today have worked and continue to work so that you don’t have to contribute to the struggle but instead can sit on your ass, reap the benefits of the struggle, and deny their accomplishments and what is left to be done. You can vote and will exercise that right without having contributed to the fight for that right, but you will never recognize a feminist for giving it to you. You should think about that the next time you look at your daughters and contemplate how their lives will unfold...

ANONYMOUS: Ephesians 5:22-33 God gives us clear instructions on how to treat each other. I give my thanks not to the feminist movement but to my heavenly father for teaching us how to treat each other. I was wise enough to pick a man that has the same beliefs as myself. And he has taken his instruction from God.
Why does the feminist not want our girls to be drafted like the men. They can't handle it like the men?? Sounds like a double standard to me.
So many women now are being force to work because these men believe it's only fair. Seriously, this is happening to my friends! They are overloaded with family life and work and can not give their all. It's sad! When women give birth they produce a hormone that gives them an attachment to their baby but do not get with a C section. Unfortunately, the US has an all time high rate of C sections and death rates of most countries (Please see The Business of Being Born) We women also produce the same hormone when we breastfeed our babies. Now, most just give them formula. God had a perfect plan for us but with this lack of attachment women can leave their baby's easier. I am not judging how other people decide to do things but that is why I do and believe what I do. I feel bad for the white male. They have been demasculinize in this society. I might thank the feminist movement for that. Take 1 week and keep your eye open for it. Listen to your friends talk about their man or watching TV. The commercials or sitcoms always make the white male a stupid buffoon. If they used a women or a male of a different race all hell would break loose. But when a white male is used everyone laughs. I am trying to raise confident young men in this crazy society. I wish the men would take a stand and refuse to be put down like they are now. I just want you to understand that by no means do I sit on my ass. I homeschool my 4 children that are scoring above any public or private school. Take care of my home and help my husband with his business. I have 4 boys and hope to have a daughter one day. But I am raising them to be wonderful husbands that make their wives feel adored and loved. But I pray they marry women who feel the importance of raising her children.
I do think women should have the choice to work if they choose. But with the feminist movement like a lot of things, a good thing can go bad. I agree it started out with good intentions but has turned many women into ugly,angry, man haters. And these men have in-turn become lazy. HECK YEAH, they are feminist. They love having their women do EVERYTHING for them. It's sad we feel we have won when it's the children who are suffering from this.

ME: we don't feel we have won and that's the point - you are a clear example of that. and it's sad that you don't understand that it's about equality - not women taking away men's rights, not men taking away women's, not one doing something and not the other. equality - equal roles, obligations, etc.

towards a complete stream of consciousness: Marriage Equality in Iowa

8:40
8:40
8:40

“Iowa Supreme Court Says Same-Sex Marriage OK”. OK. OK. OK.

IT PASSED!!!!!! Unanimously

7
0
7 – 0
7...

UNANIMOUSLY!!!

I’m an EQUAL citizen with EQUAL rights!!!

Unanimously...

Shock.
Wide-eyed.
I’m high above the world, watching – not really a part of it. I’m watching the news leak out into the world hitting everyone simultaneously and gathering them together in solidarity. Though I feel the solidarity – I feel the pull to the gathering of people – I am still somehow watching it, seeing the arms around me rather than feeling the collective embrace.
Want to feel...

Hit.
Tears, streaming down, tears. .
Stop. Start.
Hysterics. Dry-eyed.
Up. Down.
All around,
Inside. Outside.
High tide. Low tide.

Complete high.

Whole new world. Beautiful morning. Beautiful moment. Beautiful future.

So much energy – trapped inside – no where to go but the internet, Microsoft Word, cell phone. Wanna run. Wanna scream. Wanna cry. Wanna stop crying. Wanna work - get shit done. Wanna puddle stomp. Wanna revel in the sun. Wanna talk – about the struggle, about the strife, the families, the lives. Wanna hug. Wanna kiss. Wanna make-out...with a lady. Wanna have sex with a woman stranger on the front steps of the State House, unapologetically. Wanna get drunk, so incredibly drunk. Wanna hoist a rainbow flag a-top the Old Capitol; this is my state! Wanna let go – be free – dare to be free. All I can do is write...

It’s a high. I am high. I’m floating. I’m meshing. I’m heavy. I’m light. Scattered. Immobile. Itching. Striving. Happy. Rosy. Thrilled. Blissful. Joyful. Tickled-Pink!!! I’m gay – oh so GAY!!!

And Red. So very red. Red with courage – bold, fighting, courage.
Orange with openness, receptiveness, possibility – Oh the possibilities!
The challenge of yellow overcome,
Bleed to green with growth, solidarity, collectivity – power. energy. POWER! ENERGY!
And I – the blue pessimist – see solidarity. Miles...
And we – the people – are purple.
Love, together, peace, together, friends, together, family, together
TOGETHER...

Overwhelmed.
Overwhelmed.
Overwhelmed.
Energized.

She calls me, my mom, she finally calls me. I want to cry, but the roller-coaster isn’t at the top. I want her to hold me, but she is too far away. But she is holding me. She’s holding me tight as she displays her pride to the world: blogging, facebooking, emailing, phoning. It’s that coming out moment, again, all over again...
together
with love
mother and lesbian daughter
mother and daughter
loving mother and loving daughter
Generations of Change...

So much to do – Time stand still – let me fly
~as a flag~
Take a moment to celebrate
with community
-the community-
and every rainbow I own...

Iowa Supreme Court Unanimously Rules in Favor of Same-Sex Marriage: Stream of Consciousness from a Shocked and Blessed Iowa Native

I’m making history. It happened. I can’t believe it. It took a while for the hysterics to set in but now that they’re here, I can’t stop them. They’ve forced their way in.

Initially it was shock. I screamed shrieks of joy. There was an urge to contact everyone I knew – to call my mom and tell her her baby girl is a citizen now. I cried one little tear – a tear of shock really. My eyes were wide, and I was high above the world, watching – not really a part of it. I was watching the history, watching the story, watching the news leak out into the world hitting everyone simultaneously and gathering them together in solidarity. Though I felt the solidarity – I felt the pull to the gathering of people – I was still somehow watching it, seeing the arms around me rather than feeling the collective embrace.

I couldn’t move. Energy – so much energy – all bottled up but motionless. No where to put it but online, on the phone, in my blanket. Sitting on my bed with my laptop, alone but not alone. Everyone was there. Everyone was there in that moment.

I was frantic all over the internet: messaging, emailing, changing my facebook status. I found strength and pride in seeing every single status of every single friend express joy in the moment. I sent out a mass message and received words of happiness and congratulations from strangers. The internet bringing the word, sharing the word, sharing the moment: the dawn of a new era...

The Iowa Supreme Court ruled in favor of marriage equality and announced their ruling at 8:40 am on Friday, April 3, 2009. I set my alarm to get up at 8:30, quickly got on 3 news-sites on the internet, turned on my facebook chat and conversed and speculated with all of my friends. I read her status “I finally have equal rights” and hit the central Iowa news station: “Iowa Supreme Court Says Same-Sex Marriage OK”. Read it twice – wasn’t clear, concise. “Iowa Supreme Court Says Same-Sex Marriage OK”. OK. OK. OK. OK.

IT PASSED!!!!!! Unanimously... 7

I’m an EQUAL citizen with EQUAL rights!!!

After the phone calls, the announcing, the mass messaging, it hit. Tears, streaming down, tears. I couldn’t stop crying.

Emotional roller coaster.

Complete high.

Whole new world. Beautiful morning. Beautiful moment. Beautiful future.


So much energy – trapped inside – no where to go but the internet, Microsoft Word, cell phone. Wanna run. Wanna scream. Wanna cry. Wanna stop crying. Wanna work - get shit done. Wanna puddle stomp – want a storm. Wanna talk – about the struggle, about the strife, the families, the lives. Wanna hug. Wanna kiss. Wanna make-out...with a lady. Wanna photograph the court house, the lines smothering streets. Wanna hoist a rainbow flag a-top the Old Capitol; this is my state. Wanna have sex with a woman stranger on the steps of the state house, unapologetically. Wanna let go – be free – dare to be free. Wanna get drunk, so incredibly drunk. All I can do is write...

It’s a high. I am high. I’m floating. I’m meshing. I’m heavy. I’m light. Scattered. Immobile. Itching. Striving. Happy. Rosy. Thrilled. Blissful. Joyful. Tickled-Pink!!! I’m gay – oh so GAY!!!

And Red. So very red. Red with courage – bold, fighting, courage.
Orange with openness, receptivenss, possibility – Oh the possibilities!
The challenge of yellow overcome,
Bleed to green with growth, solidarity, collectivity – power. energy. POWER! ENERGY!
And I – the blue pessimist – see solidarity. Miles.
And we – the people – are purple.
Love, together, peace, together, friends, together, family
TOGETHER...


Overwhelmed.
Overwhelmed.
Overwhelmed.
Energized.

She called me, my mom, she finally called me. I wanted to cry, but the roller-coaster wasn’t at the top. I wanted her to hold me, but she was too far away. But she did hold me. She showed me proud she was to have the equal right to a daughter-in-law. She held me tight as she displayed her pride far and wide across the internet. It was that coming out moment...again...all over again...
together
mother and lesbian daughter
mother and daughter
loving mother and loving daughter
Generations of Change...

So much to do – Time stand still – Let me fly.
Take a moment to celebrate.
With community
-the community-
and every rainbow I own...

Miranda S Welch
10:45 am
Friday, April 3, 2009
Iowa City, IA
21 years old